Those passages are from the greatest Jewish convert of them all, Saint Paul of Tarsus...he clearly knew there aren't two  Covenants  in effect.

He infallibly teaches that with Christ there is only one biblical concept and it's not modern Israel or Talmudic Judaism.

Right.  And the Jews will eventually come to see Christ for who he is.

Ah__________ your pastor.     

I checked out the website and the following reminds me of the same style of teaching-preaching I sat under while I was attending Calvary Chapel in South Africa:

'I generally teach through books of the Bible verse-by-verse explaining the original meaning of the Scriptures and offering contemporary applications for every day life.'

You say:

'....instead of relying on things outside of the Bible to interpret it.'

Of course, if you told you pastor that he'd probably laugh and tell you that he had to study a lot of 'thing outside of the Bible to interpret it'   

Peace,

Aeryck

Well, okay, I misspoke.  The Catholic church has a lot of extrabiblical stuff going on that they consider to be as important as the Bible doctrinally, whereas we do not.  Also, I used to listen to Calvary Radio with Pastor Chuck Smith.

No harm.  

Extremes are always a danger!  SOLO vs SOLA Scriptura is certainly a problem that was well covered by Keith Mathison's essay: The Critique of the Evangelical Doctrine of SOLO Scriptura

The subject of the canon of Scripture is vast and I'm certainly not qualified to discuss it with you, but I think if you ask your pastor about that he'll certainly guide you to some good books to read on the subject, as well as studies in textual criticism, hermeneutics and biblical theology (add to that a study of exegesis and biblical languages) and the use of scholarly commentaries which are vital to enable one have a more open-minded approach to studies (but not so open-minded that you brains drop out)  

+)(+

On-topic:  I notice that your church has a summary of beliefs and in particular the following:

'11. We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved, and the everlasting punishment of the lost. (1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Revelation 20:4-6)'  

I'd be interested to learn how your pastor interprets both those passages:

Peace,

Aeryck

You should be able to find the Revelation's 20 sermon on the website.  We just went through it recently.

If anyone desire enter life, I would listen (obey) Word of Yahweh, and Messiah rather than church and even Paul's writing(peter said Paul's writing is hard to understand and people mess up and easy misunderstand) , chruch often making mistake, error, even teaching a lie they do not know it. Look up His Word, rather than listen speaking from men in church as they are not to be trusted easy.

I think it's more importian that Obey and doing His Desire in old and new together by His Word (it's not mose's law, it's not jew's law,its His word) rather than know a sign when it's happan, nothing new under old sun, right now, USA is very bad shape and most of them don't see it or people dont' want hear a bad new what happan in goverment, believeing a lie told by goverment.

(Hint: best listen and obey Word of Yahweh, and Word of Messiah, not Paul writing, I  am not saying Paul is false, but it's just hard to understand and often enemies of Yahweh use paul's writing just not to obey His Torah, but I believe Paul don't mean that, and most he was talked about "law of sin" not His Word or Law of righteous)

Hi Jythier, 

So, then it should be easy for you to summarize how your pastor explains Revelation 20:4-6 (referred to in point 11 : "What We Believe" ?  @ Pine Ridge)   Obviously, you'll need to ask him about 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 unless he's preached a sermon about that too, in which case you'd be able to present a summary of that too.  

While you're busy with that, I think you might want to add to that point 6, which is right on the subject and states:

'6. We believe in the personal, pre-millenial, imminent return of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9, Revelation 19-20:6)'  ( "What We Believe" @ Pine Ridge )

Here's a pastor's explanation of a section 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, followed by the same of a section of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23

The Message (MSG)

 ^21-28There is a nice symmetry in this: Death initially came by a man, and resurrection from death came by a man. Everybody dies in Adam; everybody comes alive in Christ. But we have to wait our turn: Christ is first, then those with him at his Coming, the grand consummation when, after crushing the opposition, he hands over his kingdom to God the Father. He won't let up until the last enemy is down—and the very last enemy is death! As the psalmist said, "He laid them low, one and all; he walked all over them." When Scripture says that "he walked all over them," it's obvious that he couldn't at the same time be walked on. When everything and everyone is finally under God's rule, the Son will step down, taking his place with everyone else, showing that God's rule is absolutely comprehensive—a perfect ending!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9

The Message (MSG)

 ^15-18And then this: We can tell you with complete confidence—we have the Master's word on it—that when the Master comes again to get us, those of us who are still alive will not get a jump on the dead and leave them behind. In actual fact, they'll be ahead of us. The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise—they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master. Oh, we'll be walking on air! And then there will be one huge family reunion with the Master. So reassure one another with these words.

Now refer back to my earlier post where I linked to and explanation of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and let's look at a pastor's explanation:

Here's the link again, should you decide to give it a read: click here 

I also blogged another discussion I had with an ex-pastor now an Agnostic: When is Jesus Coming Back?  Are You Ready? 

The question: (by Christopher31)
‘Yeah, that’s been chanted and believed for the past 2000 years. Still hasn’t happened. Just how soon is soon, by your estimation?’

My answer: (by headheart)
‘I cannot speak for the Jedi knight in this regard (I’m sure he’s going to give you a good answer) but it’s been my conclusion that it’s probably going to happen at what is referred to as the resurrection (ref. 1 Corinthians 15:52 – the last trumpet) and the references to this happening “soon” were more along the lines of so many texts which act as a wake up call/warning rather than a specific indicator as to a time, so that we’re always ready.’

Peace,

Aeryck 

   You have to be joking!   

Peace,

Aeryck

ps. Would that include you too? 

oh, but Protestants do have a lot of extraBiblical stuff....that would be the Protestant doctrines of Sola Scriptura, (the sole rule of faith is the Bible alone),  Sola Fides, (justification by Faith Alone), "Once Saved, Always Saved", Rapturism,  Dispensationalism, Christian Zionism and 2 Covenants existing side by side.  Each of these doctrines exist becasue someone read the Bible, decided for themselves what it means and arrogated for themselves the right to coin new doctrines. That's why there are so many different Protestant churches with different doctrines. 

The scandal of the religious system of Protestantism is there is no "unity of the Spirit" ..."one body", "one faith", "one Baptism" of Ephesians 4:3-6.   

Actually, those all come from the Bible. The letter God wrote.  Remember God?  Can you see him past the Pope's hat?

God gave a mediator and the Catholics decided human priests would be a better fit.  That praying to the mother of Jesus was something they should do.  That God didn't quite get it all down and needed to be able to still speak outside of the Biblical record. 

I believe Catholicism jumped the shark and protestants got it back on track.  I mean, they were persecuted for even having Bibles at some points in history by the Catholic church - obviously they knew that their doctrines didn't make sense, and wouldn't stand against the Word of God.  Because the Catholic church became evil for a period.  The birds of the air nested in its branches until it was so full of them that they couldn't keep evil out of power, and so evil was spread from the church.  Even in your world where Catholicism makes sense, you have to admit that Protestants were a major wake-up call for the Catholics that they needed to get there faith back in line with God.

 Aeryck, 

I hope you don't mind I've taken the liberty to change the passages of 1Thess.4 to the Douay Rheims version. 

Jythier posts:  

Of course it doesn't sound like Christ coming and wouldn't make sense if one is steeped in the Rapture doctrine and Dispensationalism.  

We know the proponents claim these rest on Scripture. The truth is it was the creation of John Darby around 1830. He traveled to Scotland to meet with Margaret McDonald, a woman who had a "vision" that Christ would come in two stages. Prior to that, no theologian or denomination had ever suggested a "two stage" coming of Christ; not Martin Luther, not Calvin, not Wycliff. Neither the Apostles nor the Early Church Fathers ever suggested Christ would come again in two stages. They never expounded any such teachings. Yet, according to its supporters the Rapture and Dispensationalism are extremely important parts of the Christian message. Yet it was unknown before 1830 and perpetuated in America beginning in 1909 by Cyrus I. Scofield. C'mon? This alone should make one skeptical. 

Note: The history of Darby's meeting with Margaret McDonald is documented in the book "The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin" by Dave MacPherson.

The Rapture doctrine and Dispensationalism are bogus. The former is a complete misrepresentation of Scripture; the latter is a distortion of some visionary turned into a schema of endtime events. 

15 "For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with a commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left,shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.17 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 DRV. 

So what is St.Paul teaching the Thessalonians and by them, us?

For context, we first go to the preceding verses where St. Paul has spoken of the necessity for holiness of life and for brotherly love among Christians (4:1-12). With verse 13, he turns to the fate of Christians after death. Misunderstandings on this issue had caused distress and apprehension in the Thessalonian Church. Some believed that Christians who died before Christ’s return would somehow miss out on that glorious event. St. Paul calmed their fears by telling them that just as Christ returned from the dead at His Resurrection, so also, at the end of time, His faithful followers who have died in the interim will be restored through resurrection v. 14. Verse 15 St.Paul describes the glorious Second Coming of Christ down from Heaven as globally broadcasted by God's command, by an archangel's shouting voice and the sound of trumpets. It's enough to wake the dead and that's exactly what St.Paul says will happen. He distinguishes two groups as regards the situation people find themselves in at Our Lord's Second Coming. One..those faithful in Christ who are alive, who are left; and two...those who have already died, these will rise again.

At Our Lord's Second Coming, the dead in Christ will rise first. They, along with the faithful in Christ who are alive, who are left:  these will be "taken up"  that is, changed 1Cor. 15:51; 2Cor. 5:2-4 by the power of God and will change from being corruptible and mortal to being incorruptible and immortal. They will be taken together in the clouds to meet Christ as He comes down from Heaven, as the Apostle's Creed teaches, to judge the living and the dead.  

When we look at all this in context, it's easy to see that it does not really support the Rapture doctrine. Verse 16 refers to something that will happen as part of Our Lord's Second Coming. The course of events St. Paul presents is straight-forward. At the time of the Second Coming, first the dead in Christ will be raised, and then all the faithful in Christ — the dead now restored and those still alive now transfigured — will ascend in the clouds, in the air to be with Christ as He comes down to earth to judge the living and the dead. This is the universal interpretation of the Fathers. 

What I mean by "the Church".....

"The Church" of the New Testament means something very definite and it's not a building or buildings. St.Paul speaks of "the Church" 17 times. St.Luke, 8 times, and St.Peter and St.John once each. "The Church of God" appears 11 times, "in the Church", 12 times, "of the Church", 18 times, and "to the Church", 5 times. All in all, the NT writers point to this visible body, The Church, in 110 references. 

It could not possibly have been any of the thousands of churches, with or without steeples, which came into existence 1500 years later at the Luther instigated protest and rebellion against the CC.

The Book of Acts 2 tells the thrilling beginning of Christ's Church on the first Pentecost Day over 21 centuries ago. Verses 37-42 gives the account of the events and verse 41 tells of the baptisms, that "about three thousand souls" became Christians and "were added" as a result of St.Peter's teaching and preaching. There are other passages in which St.Luke makes reference to the numerical growth of the Church as a result of the effectiveness of the Gospel message boldly proclaimed by the Apostles, the foundation of the Church.  2:47, 4:4; 5:14; 6:1, 7; 9:31; 11:21,24;16:5. 

That Church sent out on Pentecost Day 33AD was the early fledgling Catholic Church.  In order to understand this, one must read St.Matt. 16: 18-19 when Christ said to SimonPeter, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I will build My Church and the powers of Hell will not prevail against it. On that occasion, Peter was given Christ's "keys" which signified supreme Christ-delegated authority to "bind and loose". Again, the Lord gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter, and by Peter to the Church. 

Just before Our Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings ascended into Heaven where He rules over Earth, He gave His mission to His Church and sent them out as the Father had sent Him....."Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you, and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." Douay Rheims version. 

If Christ established a Church in which He was to abide "All days even to the consummation of the world", and He did, then that Church must be unified doctrinally, organizationally, and worshipfully, as Christ was to abide therein and the Holy Spirit was to safeguard it from error in matters of faith and morals; hence, the gates of Hell would never succeed in prevailing against it. 

Christ's Church was to be a single, universal, visible society of validly baptized faithful, united together in "one organic body" by the profession of "one faith" with Christ as its Eternal Priest and Head, and worship by the participation of the same sacrifice, (Take ye and eat..This is My Body...This is My Blood...do this in memory of Me). 

In short: The Church is the "one body" of Christ, Who is the Eternal Head which continues and completes Christ's mission. Col. 1:24.

During the very time her bishops were committing to paper the writing we call the NT, as confirmed by Church Fathers, the historians of the Apostolic age, the Church was a functioning organism with one set of unchanging doctrines, identical to those which have continued up to our time in the CC, despite the fact that the truth is constantly under attack. 

Again, Christ established  a Church, not churches. He called His Church, "a kingdom" St.Matt. 4:13. It was to be a "house of God", 1Tim.2, not houses of God. 

Protestantism inflicted the world with its abstract declaration that....the church is all believers in every church. The only thing they have in common is profession of belief in Christ (but not all believe in the Holy Trinity), minus unity as to "teaching them to observe all things Christ commanded".   All of these hundreds of diverse Protestant churches, individually or collectively, cannot be the Church that came into existence of the first Pentecost Day. 

Christians are called to do as Christ did while here on earth, preach the gospel to the ends of the earth and 'do even greater things than these (performed miracles)' and I personally do not worry about when the rapture may take place, which is entirely up to God.  Why be concerned with the headlines of the day to look for clues?  Why think that the mark of the beast is a chip -check Exodus where the word of God was bound to the hand and forehead.  The mark is returning to physical and spiritual slavery. 

Christ established the "Church", which is all who believe, profess faith and baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  The bible teaches the Trinitarian nature of God -Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Read http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html for definition.  Bible also teaches Hypostatic Union of Christ being fully God and fully man in perfect unity.  Any believe about the nature of God and Jesus Christ differing from the Trinitarian and Hypostatic are not Christian.  Many, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Creflo Dollar types, Unitarians and others deny both and are cut off from the body of believers who are in Christ -which is what THE CHURCH is, not the Lutheran, RCC, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Anglican, or any other denomination. 

RCC told me I was baptized as a non-denominational and it didn't count; others said the same thing.  My mother, a confirmed/baptized RC, was told by some protestant denominations that hers didn't count.  Still others said it didn't matter where we were baptized, we weren't baptized by them so we weren't in the eyes of God.  How's that for the unified "body of Christ"?  Thankfully, many churches recognize that one baptized in a Trinitarian church is valid and not ripping the body of Christ apart at the seams.

We are either all baptized and adopted in the kingdom of God or not.  If you are a Christian and happen to love worshiping according to the traditions of the RCC, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, etc... church and it's doctrines founded on scripture -enjoy.  If your church strays from the word of God, better run.

What are those several points?

What things? Please don't give the sensationalist speculation. 

The Book of the Apocalypse contains 22 chapters. David B. Currie whom I've already mentioned makes an excellent case that the first 19 chapters relate the details of the two children of God, the Old versus the New. Galatians and Hebrews are foundational to this. From this we understand  what Jesus had predicted in the Olivet discourse of St.Matt. 24. 

Much of  The Apocalypse doesn't predict the future but rather tells of the past...that these past events may be a foretaste of the future, just as Sarah and Hagar were a foretaste of the events surrounding August 10, 70 AD.

The messages in the Apocalypse aren't unique to it, the theme runs throughout the Bible.  

........................

I disagree. 

Remember the OT prophecies were all about Christ in one way or another and with Christ, they have been fulfilled. 

This includes Daniel's last week which was fulfilled in 70AD. 

Those steeped in the Rapture doctrine are still waiting for Daniel's 70th week when in fact it encompassed the seven decades of convenantal transition during the first century. The Apocalypse is a series of visions describing the Old to the New transition, including the Great Tribulation  of the Olivet discourse, and the casting out of Hagar explained by St.Paul in Galations.

Once the descriptions of all these events are linked together as a whole story, then it's plain to see the bulk of the St. John's visions are not primarily about our future although some of them foreshadow the future eschaton. 

At the same time that is not to say that the events of the Apocalypse don't apply to our daily lives, for they do. The evil in our world tells us we must keeps these lessons before us. 

..................................................................................

This has absolutely nothing to do with modern Israel. 

Almighty God has already dealt with Israel. You need to study Galatians and Hebrews and how those relate to The Apocalypse as far as the two covenants are concerned. From those we understand that Abraham cast out Hagar which prefigured that God would cast out the Old Covenant Mosaic Law....The Old Covenant is finished ....of its end, the first signal came in 33AD when Christ died on the Cross the Temple Veil was rent and once and for all in 70AD.

Like the two sons of Abraham existed together for some time, and one was "cast out", so too the OLd and New Covenants. The co-existed for some time, about 40 years if you do the math between 33 AD and 70AD. But the co-existence could not go on forever becasue there was too much confusion and conflict as St.Paul explained to the Galatians and Hebrews.

The only solution was to "cast out" the son of bondage, the Old Covenant system and that's precisely what Jesus had predicted in the Olivet Discourse. He warned the Jewish leaders that their rejection of the Truth would be the cause of their destruction. He also implied that the two children of God, the Old and the New Covenant would co-exist for some time, "a generation" St.Matt. 24:34. Before the end of that generation, about 40 years, Jerusalem would be destroyed, the Temple and its altar destroyed followed by the ending of the priestly tribe of Levi with its family of Aaron and the ending of the existence of the tribe of Judah with its family of David, in which the Messias was foretold to be born, evidences the indisputable historic fact that the Judaism of the Old Covenent ceased to exist.

The ending of OT Judaism was providential. It had fulfilled its glorious mission. That mission ended with the coming of the predicted Messias, in the Person of Jesus; who at the Last Supper instituted a new priesthood, and the New Sacrifice predicted by Malachais 1.  

The only God-instututed means of atonement for sin would come by Our Lord Jesus Christ and His New Covenant religion from here on until the consummation of the world.

The Apocalypse is primarily a prophecy that describes the process of casting out the Old Covenant system. Because it illustrates how God keeps His promise to His children, we can trust its promise of Christ's Second Event.