Lula posts: 

Jythier, 

The Church teaches when we are baptized we are born again. I know that Protestants are told that when Christ said, "Ye must be born again,", He meant a new heart. 

But that's a most inadequate explanation. For a change of heart means conversion from unbelief to belief in Christ and from morally evil ways to morally good conduct. It therefore means repentance. Now Our Lord did insist on repentance or a change of heart in all who sought baptism, but He did not identify it with Baptism. He said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" St.Mark 16:16. When speaking of the rite (what you call ritual) of Baptism itself, He said, "Unless one is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." St.John 3:3. You will notice here that while conversion or change of heart is an interior change in our own dispositions, the new principle of life comes from forces outside us. It is something put into us, and signified by an external rite. The good prepatory dispositions are from us, but the new life is not from us, but from God. The washing with Baptismal water signifies the cleansing of the soul from the disease of sin belonging to children of a guilty race; and the Holy Spirit of God as infusing into our souls a new life which gives us a new birth to a spiritual life of grace far beyond and above the merely natural life secured by natural birth.

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Now, to be valid, Baptism must be performed in the manner determined by Christ who instituted it and it consists of 2 parts, the matter and the form : The matter is the cleansing by water on the one to be baptized and the form is the pronunciation of the words which call the Blessed Trinity. 

The Sacrament of Baptism is validly administered when with the water, whether by immersion, sprinkled or poured on the person and at the same time the words are pronounced: "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." 

This is the Baptismal rite...what according to you is a "ritual problem"??? ...the Baptismal ritual you're slamming as not necessary for salvation? The one you claim the Church created by which to be saved?

If so, then it is you who has looked the Bible but doesn't understand it for the Church did not create Baptism or the Baptismal "ritual"...Christ did. 

In St.John 3:3, Our Lord spoke "of water and the Holy Spirit." He explicitly commanded Baptism be given in St.Matt. 28:18-19 and that is exactly what the Apostles did. Peter baptized Cornelius and his family in Acts. 10:47. Philip did the same with the eunuch Acts 8:38. The first baptisms on Pentecost numbered 3,000. St.Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." 

For the ancient Israelites and Jews before Christ, God instituted the religious rite of circumcision, the outward sign by which they were made a covenant people. Circumcision was a type of Baptism. By circumcision man belonged to God's Old Covenant people, and by Baptism he belongs to the New Covenant and new birth through Jesus Christ.    

The significance of St.John the Baptist's Baptism of Penance is that it was the baptismal bridge of the Old to the New Covenant. The transition was at hand. In St. Matt. 3 we read St. John the Baptist called upon the people to "prepare the way of the Lord" through the baptism of penance as the "kingdom of God", the reign of Christ in His Church and in their individual souls, was "at hand". 

St. Thomas Aquinas teaches the New Covenant sacrament of Baptism was instituted at the moment Christ was baptized by St. John the Baptist. That when the waters of St. John's baptism touched Christ at that moment water itself was sanctified. 

Here's the passage and note the water and the Blessed Trinity are present.

St. Matt 3:6,13,16,17---- 
Those from Jerusalem and all Judea in the area of the Jordan River went out to meet St.John the Baptist, v.6, “And were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins...13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 16 and Jesus being baptized forthwith came out of the water, and lo, the heavens were opened to him; and he saw the spirit of God descending as a dove and coming upon him. 17 and behold a voice from Heaven saying, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” (here we have the Blessed Trinity all present--the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost.)

We know Our Lord Jesus Christ is the greatest teacher of all. The time had come that He willed to appear openly as the Messias and He began His public life by being baptized by St. John the Baptist. Why did He let Himself be baptized? He certainly didn’t require penance as He was sinless but He was obedient to the ceremonial requirements of the Old Law (which btw, Acts 15 tells the Council of Jerusalem declared no longer binding.)  He gave us a lesson in humility and obedience and taught us that we too must obey all the New Covenant ordinances of God.

The wonderful events which followed the Baptism of Jesus directly foreshadowed the effects of Christian Baptism. In the Sacrament of Baptism, when the water is poured and the specific words are pronounced, the Holy Ghost comes down on the person, gives him sanctifying grace, and infuses on him the 3 theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity. By the grace of Baptism, through "water and the Holy Spirit", or by Baptism of desire or blood, God adopts man to be His beloved child, and opens for him the way to heaven. 

I thought only your priests had the Holy Spirit?

The Protestant doctrine is of course that baptism is not NECESSARY for salvation but it is a COMMAND of Jesus Christ to those who have been saved.  So we get baptized, but it does not cost us salvation if we don't.

[quote who="Jythier" reply="78" id="3185459"]I thought only your priests had the Holy Spirit?[/quote]

Why do you think that?  

Let's answer that by going back just a bit. 

We are all born children of the wrath, that is, with Original Sin on our soul and no one who has OS or mortal sin on their soul can enter heaven. Apoc. 21:27.  God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and sin do not abide together. 

So, Almighty God in His Infinite Kindness and Mercy sent Christ who by His life, Passion, Death and Resurrection redeemed all mankind. 

Christ instituted a New Covenant of Grace, a Church and Seven Sacraments by which we can receive His Divine Grace.  These 7 Sacraments are a gift of love from Our Lord Jesus Christ, a gift for which He paid His very life.  

A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Sanctifying or Divine Grace. From the Church teaching, Tradition, and Scripture, we know there are 7 Sacraments--- Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony--- all instituted by Christ because only God can endow signs with the power to give Grace. 

The Sacraments are 7 great streams of grace flowing from the pierced Heart of Jesus Crucified to nourish and strengthen our souls. The Sacraments derive their efficacy from Christ By Whose merits we are able to possess them. they do not derive any merit from the person administering them. Therefore the Sacraments give grace of themselves, even when the priest or person administering them is unworthy, as long as the recipient has the proper disposition. We understand this point by understanding that good medicine is good regardless of the druggist or physician.  

Each Sacrament possesses the power from God to make the soul of the recepient holy and pleasing to Him. this supernatural power is termed sanctifying grace. 

Sanctifying grace is abiding and permanent and lost only by mortal sin.  The Holy Spirit resides in our soul as long as it is in a state of sanctifying grace. The Sacrament that first gives Grace is Baptism and that's why Baptism is the first sacrament we may receive. Baptism confers our soul with Sanctifying Grace. We know this from the fact that Christ made it the sacrament of renewal of spirit: "Unless a man be born again of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Baptism cleanses (takes away) Original  Sin and gives our soul new life of Sanctifying Grace. Thus by Baptism we are born again. 

After Baptism, when we commit grievous, mortal sin, we lose Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace and sin don't abide together. It can be regained when we repent, confess our sins through the Sacrament of Penance alone.

The chief purpose of the Sacarments of Baptism and Penance is to restore the soul dead in sin to the life of sanctifying grace. 

As far as the Catholic priests of the New Covenant of Grace, only they, legitimate successors to the Apostles, have the power of  "binding and loosing". Only they have the power to administer the 5 Sacraments of Penance, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist (Communion), Extreme Unction, Holy Orders. 

Our Lord gave them that power in St.Matt. 16:18-19 and 28:18-20.

In Scripture, the Sacraments are called "the mysteries", and the Apostles, Bishops and Priests are the "dispensers of the mysteries". In 1Cor.4:1-2, "Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God.2 Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful."  

the ministers of Christ are the people to whom He has entrusted His property...His teachings and His sacraments..for them to protect them faithfully, and acting as His agents, to pass them on and disperse them to others. 

"As the father has sent Me so I send you." was first spoken by Christ to His Apostles, from the Apostles to their successors, the priests, who by their ordinations, the Sacrament of Holy Orders, are appointed  as "dispensers of the mysteries of God" for the benefit of the members of the Mystical Body of Christ since the priest is the minister of nearly all the Sacraments --those channels through which the grace of our Savior flows for the good of all His Church. The Christian, at almost every important stage of his life, finds at his side the priest with the power received from God, for the purpose of communicating or increasing that grace which is the supernaturl life of the soul." Pope Pius XI, Ad catholici sacerdotii.  

The Church of the New Testament has never, ever been just the body of believers. This is the Protestant definition that has been handed down through Protestant oral tradition from Calvin.  

The Protestant definition of "the Church" as the body of believers does not/cannot in any way, shape, or form encompass St.Matt. 16:18-19; or 28:18-20.

How does your definition "the body of believers" in thousands of churches line up with St.Paul's calling the Church, "the pillar and ground of Truth"? 

In the New Covenant of Grace, Christ established a Church with a sacerdotal priesthood, which Protestants reject along with the 7 Sacraments. Sad, but true.

God gives Grace outside the 7 Sacraments in answer to prayer.

"Baptism is not necessary for salvation" is a sub-doctrine of Luther's "Sola Fide", saved by faith alone.

Both are false teachings on so many levels. It's hard to understand how anyone can believe and practice them. 

For example, on the Scriptural level, St. Mark 16:15-16 alone demolishes it. 

"And He (Christ) said to them, Go into all the  world and preach the Gospel to the whole of creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he who believes not shall be condemned."

Verse 15 contains what is called the "universal apostolic mandate" parallelled by St. Matt. 28:19-20 and St.Luke 24:46-48.

Verse 16 teaches that as a consequence of the proclamation of preaching the Gospel, BOTH Faith and Baptism are indespensible pre-requisites for attaining salvation.

Here Our Lord explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism for salvation. Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Set St.Mark 16:15-16 against what you said here. ..."Christ commanded Baptism to those who have been saved." It refutes it doesn't it? So you believe and practice Luther's false teaching over the Gospel according to St.Mark? 

If you can't see that, then read Titus 3:5-7, "Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost.6 Whom He had poured fort h upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ, our Savior. 7 That, being justified by His grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting."

Verses 5-6, he's referring to Baptism and verse 7 proves it's not happening "to those who have been saved" as Protestantism teaches. Rather, we are being justified by His grace, we may be heirs (to the kingdom of God) according to the hope of life everlasting.

There are several other Scriptural passages that completely knock out these two Protestant doctrines. Tradition by way of the Church Father's writing and sermons also refute them. 

Protestantism is building up false assurances in these doctrines and offering conditions of salvation radically opposed to Scripture. No where is full assurance of salvation promised to anyone. Our Lord said, "If thou wilt enter life, keep the commandments." He told us to "Watch and pray, that ye not enter into temptation." Why, if one is fully assured of salvation?

Matter of fact, Our Lord manifestly tells us that there is a danger of forfeiting salvation. St.Paul told the Corinthians that "He that thinks himself to stand, let him beware lest he fall."

This lesson is crystal clear in what he wrote to the Hebrews 6:4-5 "It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and are fallen away, to be renewed again by penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making Him a mockery."

According to Protestantism, people who have been enlightened, tasted the good word of God, etc. should have had full assurance of eternal life ....yet they fell.

St.Peter, too, tells us of those who had made a shipwreck of the Faith. He's talking of Christians who had accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Jesus redeemed everyone; He didn't save everyone. Don't confuse redemption with salvation. 

Luther's saved by faith alone is of no avail. Read St.James 2 if you don't believe it. Mere believing in Him and calling upon Him is not enough to assure salvation. Believing in Him and calling upon the name of the Lord while failing to do His Father's will  ends in damnation.We have to labor and strive to fulfill all the obligations imposed upon us by God. While Salvation is a gift of God; it is not an unconditional gift. He laid down conditions and having free will, we are not compelled to fulfill them. But with the help of His grace, we have to work out our salvation by good works in fear and trembling.   

A conversion to Christ requires more than that to save us. Either He is Lord of all or He is not. When we acknowledge Him as Lord, as King of kings, we oblige ourselves to receive all He taught as a rule of life. ANd St.John 21:25 tells us that all He taught isn't found only in the Bible.

St.Paul links conduct with salvation and lists for us those things which constitute deadly sin and threaten our salvation. Gal. 5:19-21. these serious violations of the law of God are called mortal sins becasue sins of this gravity take away sanctifying grace, life in the soul and thus bring death to it. 

Read Romans 1:29-32.

In light of the revealed truth in all these Scriptural passages, no one who claims---that Baptism is not necessary for salvation and that Baptism is a command of Christ to those who have been saved, and that for those who don't get Baptised are still saved,--- cannot be taken seriously.

Actually the ministerial, sacerdotal  New Covenant priesthood was Christ's doing. 

Worship of God is as important in the New Covenant religion as it was in the Old Covenant religion. The world has only had one religion of God's making. That religion was Biblical Judaism, and it contained potentially, Christianity, the religion that displaced it. In BIblical Judaism, the only religion the days before Christ, there was the Promise, Christ, and the family of David from which Christ was to come and did come. Biblical Judaism contained a priesthood of Aaron and Mosaic sacrifices in pre Christian times, that the OLd Testament said would be displaced, as it has been, by a priesthood without geneology, and a "clean oblation" in place of the bloody oblations of Old. Catholics hold their religion, with its Christ instituted  priesthood and sacrifice to be biblical Judaism full blossomed.  

It was on Mount Sinai through Moses and Aaron God instituted His worship and a Jewish priesthood. Aaron was the first priest and each one of the high priests in succession after him wore a breastplate of 12 precious stones for the 12 tribes for whom he offered sacrifice. 

Biblical Judaism with its sacrificial cult in charge of the priesthood of Jerusalem's Temple, the Old Mosaic Covenant, its rites and ceremonies, were closed when Christ's New Covenant entered its sacred history. In 70AD, the Temple was razed falt, the sacrifical cult is no more, nor is a Jewish priest offering a bloody sacrifice of the Old Law today. That all ceased as was foretold, for a new priesthood, "according to the order of Melchisedech" was offering a "clean oblation". 

Aaron offered bulls, calves, goats, lambs, etc. as sacrifices of the Mosaic Law, whereas Melchidedech offered bread and wine, such as Our Lord offered at the Last Supper on the night before He was crucified. It was at this time He instituted the New Covenant priesthood. This sacrificial offering has been continued for 2100 years by the priesthood of the Catholic Church as Malachais predicted, from the "rising of the sun to the going down" thereof. 1:11.

Now that bloody sacrifice of the Jews is no more now that the "clean Oblation" predicted by Malachais ..the last of the Jewish prophets..has supplanted it in the Sacrifice of the Mass. The Cathollic priesthood is the priesthood of Christ Himself.

 St.Paul says that Christ "gave the Apostles, Evangelists, Pastors, ... for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." Eph. 4:11-12.

The successors of the Apostles were ordained by the imposition of hands. Timothy was told not to neglect the grace of God, "which is in thee by the laying on of hands." Rightly ordained Priests alone have the right to teach authoritatively and carry on its sacred ministry. 

I hope this has cleared up your misunderstanding and misrepresentation about the Catholic priesthood.