This is a 5 year old post....

So, I'm 54 and thinking.  So what're your thoughts/beliefs about the rapture? (and end times)  I get that it's quite a modern development born out of the schismatics and combined with the anti-Orthodox position held by many Protestants has pretty much gone and developed into a frightening tale that is more an invention of bad exegesis than anything worth believing etc.

Peace,
Aeryck. 

'The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. ....'  (The Rapture by Aristobulus (Roger) Allen

The Bible is very specific in several points that make preterism not likely.  Also, the things described in Revelations haven't happened yet.  The way that the Bible specifically states the number of weeks that God will deal with Israel, but there's still a week left, is pretty clear as well.  There's still 7 years that God is going to deal with Israel.  It hasn't happened yet, and it doesn't say The Church.  Israel is its own Biblical concept, while the church is a completely different Biblical concept, and putting the one into the other is incorrect, in my estimation.  The Church is not the New Israel.  Israel is Israel.  For example, the Jews are the only people group to ever survive as a people group while losing their country.  Okay, why were they preserved?  So that they could be replaced?  Nope.  If God didn't plan to deal with Israel again, they would have been wiped out.  As it stands, they haven't, and Israel is a PLACE ON A MAP again.  How can anyone look at this and think that the Church replaces Israel?  I can imagine if Israel hadn't reformed, and was still scattered, but having come back together, the picture is crystal clear of what is going to happen.  God doesn't preserve people for no reason.  He's not done with Israel, and because of that, the things in week 7 have yet to occur.

A preterist view doesn't explain everything that's indicated to have occured by Christ's return.

So this means you have to remove specific references that remain unfulfilled and say they "aren't relevant" (which opens up a whole deal about what the bible is for) or you have to generalize and smear the specificity to make them fit...redefine the whole idea of Christs return even as metaphor, etc., etc.

There are some very specific things mentioned in Daniel and Revelation that definitely haven't occurred. If these can be dismissed as allegory, so can the virgin birth, existence of Jesus, inspiration of scripture, interpretation of scripture, etc. etc.

The reason we have a holy spirit is to allow the bible to be more than academic, philosophical and historical literature.

A lot of scenarios popular in churches are very shaky speculations--but the general concept of a rapture/rescue is very plausible within scripture.

It is also clear that judgement is coming through the bowls and the trumpets and all that, but the Bible is clear that Christians aren't to be judged like that.

My thoughts on the Rapture coming up. 

“Postmillenialism is the belief that Christ, with His coming, His atonement, and His continuing regenerative power in those whom He calls, creates in His redeemed people a force for the reconquest of all things. The dominion that Adam first received and then lost by his fall will be restored to redeemed man. God’s people will then have a long reign over the entire earth, after which, when all enemies have been put under Christ’s feet, the end shall come, and the last enemy, death, will be destroyed.” R.J. Rushdoony from “Back to the Future” From: Monergism – Post Millenialism

'In Christian end-times theology, (eschatology), postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper. The term subsumes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism and, to a lesser extent,amillennialism (see Summary of Christian eschatological differences).'  From: Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia - Post Millennialism

A Short Summary of Preterism (by Dee Dee Warren) 

Complete Study of Matthew 24:  It's Not The End of The World by DD Warren

Matthew 24:34 NKJV

 'Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.'

 Matthew 10:23 NKJV

 'When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.'

 Matthew 16:28 NKJV

 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

 Revelation 1:1 and 3 NKJV

 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, .... Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

 Matthew 24:3 NKJV

 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

 Psalm 110:1-2 NKJV

 The Lord said to my Lord,

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

*1 Corinthians 15:20-28 NKJV*

²⁰ But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since by mancame death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. ²³ But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. ²⁴ Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.²⁵ For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.²⁶ The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. ²⁷ For “He has put all things under His feet.”^[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. ²⁸ Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Footnotes:

 Apocalyptic Language

 Matthew 24:29 NKJV

 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 Isaiah 13:9-10 NKJV

 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,

Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

 Ezekiel 32:7-8 NKJV

 When I put out your light,

I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light. 

All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you,
And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God.

 Isaiah 34:4-5 NKJV

 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,

 Isaiah 19:1 NKJV

 The burden against Egypt. 

For more episodes: Matthew 24 & DD's podcast links  

Peace,

Aeryck

Keith A Mathison author of "Postmillennial - Post Millennialism - An Eschatology of Hope wrote the following in response to a review of his book: 

 ’I don’t know that I would say of myself that I’ve “undergone some theological changes.” My interpretation of some individual texts has changed, but it hasn’t resulted in a major overhaul of my eschatology. I would consider it more of a refinement of some details. Regarding the terms “Amillennialism” and “Postmillennialism,” it is true that I’m far less concerned now about which of those terms people use to label my views. If that’s a major theological change, so be it.    I recall something that Donald Bloesch wrote, where he said (and I’m paraphrasing from memory here) that his view could be defined as postmillennialism within an amillennial framework. I’ve always thought that statement pretty well summed up my own position. I see the views as ranging along a spectrum. My understanding of postmillennialism is in that blurry part of the spectrum where some versions of amillennialism and some versions of postmillennialism overlap. That’s why it doesn’t concern me which label one uses to describe my views. The key point that seems to determine where one stands concerns how much visible manifestation in history there will be of the growth of the kingdom (which all sides grant). I’m a bit more optimistic about that question than someone like, say, Cornelis Venema, with whom I agree on a number of points. I still like the D-Day and V-Day analogy. The growth of the kingdom is comparable to the time between D-Day and V-Day. There’s progress towards victory, but it is a bloody and hardfought battle all the way until the end.’  (read the review)

 What is Amillennialism?

'Amillennialism (Latin: a- "no" + millennialism) is a view in Christian end-times theology named for its rejection of the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year long, physical reign on the earth. This is in opposition to premillennial and some postmillennial interpretations of chapter 20of the Book of Revelation.

In contrast, the amillennial view holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is asymbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age, (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70— see Preterism). Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign.'   From: Amillennialism @ Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia (read more)

Here's a discussion I had on the subject being somewhat undecided about this matter for a really long time:

WHY I AM NOT AN ORTHODOX PRETERIST YET by "headheart" < That's me!  ( Though I call myself a "Wiccan", it is only done as a protest against the Evangelical Christian shrapnel ( Wicca is an evil, demonic power thirsty faith. ) I incurred during an enquiry into the subject of "Witchcraft 'n Wicca" - something I have been researching for well over a decade having published a small but biased article in 2003 thereabouts simply titled "Witchcraft." ( there are several links to my ongoing research, here )

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I'm currently studying (being part mentored) a number of books by various authors and several excellent commentaries dealing with the problematic passages such as the few I referred to in reply 23 (below the video by D.D. Warren of PreterSite 100% Certified Heresy Free)  If you've not listened to her latest podcast dealing with Matthew 24:34 - It's About Time! as an ongoing exegesis of Matthew 24 (her commentary of the same at Pretersite) I recommend you give it a hard tonk! 

Peace,

Aeryck.

So... what do you believe here?

It's still very much a work in progress and I'm largely indecisive but I don't intend to sit on the fence and say something like 'I'm a Panmillennialist' and it'll all pan-out or reboot in the end.   

I think the bold section of the following quote pretty much summarizes my own thoughts thus far:

 A little more from:  The Rapture by Aristobolus (Roger) Allan:

"To be sure, there will be a catching away of the saints on earth but this happens at the last trumpet sound (Revelation 11:15). Writing to the Christians in Thessalonica, St. Paul tells us what the 2nd coming (Greek- parousia) is like. "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)". The same words are used here to describe the catching up of Christians as is used to describe the 2nd coming of the Lord. Both occur in the clouds, in the air, and everyone on earth sees it happen. In other words, the so-called Rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ will happen at the same time."  ( read more)

Peace,

Aeryck

Add to that another passage from Paul's letters too: 1 Corinthians 15:52   What is this 'last trumpet' that Paul is talking about?

That doesn't sound like Christ coming.  It sounds like him staying.  We meet HIM in the clouds.  That's not coming.  And then, after that, more things are going to happen... I don't see how this makes sense... Christ is going to come and rule on earth for 1000 years.  That's what the Bible says and I'm not inclined to believe that it was metaphorical in that context or meaning anything short of 1000 years of Christ on the earth with us.  So if Christ isn't coming to earth then, he'll have to come later.

Hi Jytheir, 

There's quite a lot to take in and quite a lot to study so I tend to reserve judgement and keep studying but for now I'm less convinced of the module that was taught me as a young believer in the Assemblies of God (and later Derek Prince's teaching) and more open to a stricter application of hermeneutics, apocalyptic disciplines and study, study, study.

'The Assemblies of God are premillennialist. They believe that Christ will return and reign physically, visibly, and politically for 1,000 years on earth. The Wisconsin Synod rejects the teaching that Jesus will return to establish a political reign here on earth (John 18:36, Romans 14:17, Colossians 1:13-14).' 

Passages: 

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”  ( John 18:36)

^{' ....}for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.' (Romans 14:17)

^' He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, ¹⁴ in whom we have redemption through His blood,^[a] the forgiveness of sins.' ( Colossians 1:13-14)

Footnotes:

1. Colossians 1:14 NU-Text and M-Text omit through His blood.

From: What is the difference between Assemblies of God and Lutheran Church @ Wiki Answers.com

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Derek Prince - Laying the Foundation (8/10) - At The End of Time

From:  "Derek Prince's Foundation Teachings"

Apart from 'That's what the Bible says' what or whom have you studied on this subject? 

Viewing the chart, (refer post 23) which view would you say more closely represents that of you own?  

Peace,

Aeryck.

2

Pastor Rick.

Rick Warren? 

Yes, and I missed it in 2007 and I had already been on board JU for a few months.

Exactly. Glad you resurrected Infogreek's original article. 

This is about the same time and from the same people I first learned of "The Rapture" as well. These people made alot of moola from popularizing Darby's bizarre theory. It really took hold and as a result, alot of people were/are duped into believing it. 

As I understand it, the essence of the Rapture is that sometime soon, Christ will come to earth and secretly "catch up"--rapture--all the "true believers" (who would not include the doctrinally misled Catholics of course!). The "chosen" Protestants could then escape the 7-year tribulation which will see the rise and rule of anti-christ. At the end of the 7 years, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the anti-christ, the Jews will convert, and Christ will reign in Jerusalem for 1,000 years. 

There will definitely be "endtimes" , but no Rapture such as this.